Comments on: Finnish church and state holding hands http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/ Politics, current events, culture - From Finland & United States Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:08:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Finnpundit http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-8206 Finnpundit Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:39:36 +0000 /?p=938#comment-8206 The decline of the Finnish state church in power and influence also saw the rise of the welfare state, especially as espoused by the demarit. The welfare state filled the void, becoming <i>the vehicle</i> for altruistic, social activity, instead of the church. But it would be a mistake to assume that the church's legacy was curtailed; the reality is that the moral certitude of the church was eagerly, consciously adopted by the welfare state. The welfare state exhibits the same kind of self-evidential thinking that was the mainstay of the church for so many centuries. And it practices the same kinds of strategies the church always did in order to keep its hold on power. The decline of the Finnish state church in power and influence also saw the rise of the welfare state, especially as espoused by the demarit. The welfare state filled the void, becoming the vehicle for altruistic, social activity, instead of the church. But it would be a mistake to assume that the church’s legacy was curtailed; the reality is that the moral certitude of the church was eagerly, consciously adopted by the welfare state. The welfare state exhibits the same kind of self-evidential thinking that was the mainstay of the church for so many centuries. And it practices the same kinds of strategies the church always did in order to keep its hold on power.

]]> By: sepisp http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-8110 sepisp Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:55:33 +0000 /?p=938#comment-8110 But concerning church and state, the church was the state until relatively recently. The reason the church has the right for taxation is because the church administration *was* the tax administration originally. But concerning church and state, the church was the state until relatively recently. The reason the church has the right for taxation is because the church administration *was* the tax administration originally.

]]> By: Paula http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-8030 Paula Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:47:35 +0000 /?p=938#comment-8030 I went to a normal Finnish school starting 1982, I think. We never said grace for lunch - most of the time that would have hugely impractical, anyway. Some sort of morning thing (aamunavaus) happened once a week or so if I remember right, but most of the time it was not particularly religious (teachers took turns to read some instructional story or poetry or give a little talk about something they thought important, whatever they wished to do). If there were any prayers, and that didn't happen a lot, no one was forced to join in. No prayers during religion classes, either. We did sing hymns and spiritual songs sometimes when we were learning about church music (both religion and music classes), if that helps. I went to a normal Finnish school starting 1982, I think. We never said grace for lunch – most of the time that would have hugely impractical, anyway. Some sort of morning thing (aamunavaus) happened once a week or so if I remember right, but most of the time it was not particularly religious (teachers took turns to read some instructional story or poetry or give a little talk about something they thought important, whatever they wished to do). If there were any prayers, and that didn’t happen a lot, no one was forced to join in.

No prayers during religion classes, either. We did sing hymns and spiritual songs sometimes when we were learning about church music (both religion and music classes), if that helps.

]]> By: sepisp http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7991 sepisp Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:57:04 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7991 Damn! They're trying to make the new copyright shit into the constitution! Damn! They’re trying to make the new copyright shit into the constitution!

]]> By: mac http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7972 mac Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:38:27 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7972 If you think Finnish church and state are too tied together, come to Italy, where you are FORCED to give 0.8% of your tax to the church. If you don't, you'll pay it anyway as tax. Cheers, mac If you think Finnish church and state are too tied together, come to Italy, where you are FORCED to give 0.8% of your tax to the church. If you don’t, you’ll pay it anyway as tax.
Cheers,
mac

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7964 Anonymous Sun, 11 Sep 2005 08:03:37 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7964 <i>You never said a grace before eating? Or during morning prayers?</i> Grace, yes, but never during religion class. I don't remember any morning prayers, but it's been a while. You never said a grace before eating? Or during morning prayers?

Grace, yes, but never during religion class. I don’t remember any morning prayers, but it’s been a while.

]]> By: Mikko Sandt http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7956 Mikko Sandt Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:53:14 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7956 <i>I don’t recall a single word of prayer being uttered in religion class during my 12 years at school .</i> You never said a grace before eating? Or during morning prayers? I don’t recall a single word of prayer being uttered in religion class during my 12 years at school .

You never said a grace before eating? Or during morning prayers?

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7940 Anonymous Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:16:48 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7940 <i>Religion(s) should still be taught at schools since it’s important to know about it, just like it’s important to know about your history, but there should be no praying, religious singing or anything that violates the separation of church & state.</i> I don't recall a single word of prayer being uttered in religion class during my 12 years at school . Granted, religion in the early grades is little more than content-free religious indoctrination (although I recall a teacher telling stories which I very much later discovered being from apocryphal, even Gnostic gospels) and should be done away with. Religion should start at the 5th grade or so, along with history. By the way, if religious studies violate the hypothetical separation of church and state, do foreign languages violate the Finnish constitution which defines the official languages of Finland? Religion(s) should still be taught at schools since it’s important to know about it, just like it’s important to know about your history, but there should be no praying, religious singing or anything that violates the separation of church & state.

I don’t recall a single word of prayer being uttered in religion class during my 12 years at school . Granted, religion in the early grades is little more than content-free religious indoctrination (although I recall a teacher telling stories which I very much later discovered being from apocryphal, even Gnostic gospels) and should be done away with. Religion should start at the 5th grade or so, along with history.

By the way, if religious studies violate the hypothetical separation of church and state, do foreign languages violate the Finnish constitution which defines the official languages of Finland?

]]> By: Mikko Sandt http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7939 Mikko Sandt Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:33:57 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7939 They definitely should be separated. Religion(s) should still be taught at schools since it's important to know about it, just like it's important to know about your history, but there should be no praying, religious singing or anything that violates the separation of church & state. They definitely should be separated. Religion(s) should still be taught at schools since it’s important to know about it, just like it’s important to know about your history, but there should be no praying, religious singing or anything that violates the separation of church & state.

]]> By: M http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7926 M Sat, 10 Sep 2005 08:36:13 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7926 I agree, state and church should be separated. I agree, state and church should be separated.

]]> By: Praise the RIAA, touch the screen, heal heal http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7921 Praise the RIAA, touch the screen, heal heal Sat, 10 Sep 2005 07:25:03 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7921 Yep, it's truly revolting that this sort of law that practically flushes several consumer rights down the toiled in benefit of the international record industry (see http://www.effi.org/tekijanoikeus/laki/tekijanoikeus-faq.html) goes through without any fuss, the only thing caught by the media radar being this minor detail with Church. Besides, aren't most the chants they play in the Church too old to be covered by the copyright fee anyway? If I was a satanist would I get free heavy music? Yep, it’s truly revolting that this sort of law that practically flushes several consumer rights down the toiled in benefit of the international record industry (see http://www.effi.org/tekijanoikeus/laki/tekijanoikeus-faq.html) goes through without any fuss, the only thing caught by the media radar being this minor detail with Church.

Besides, aren’t most the chants they play in the Church too old to be covered by the copyright fee anyway?

If I was a satanist would I get free heavy music?

]]> By: Philip http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7919 Philip Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:05:16 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7919 This is probably the only thing that you and Tarja H. are agreeing with, and that is the role of the church and state (it should be separated). I wonder if that will be a referendum or a constitutional change soon to make the churches separate from the state. This is probably the only thing that you and Tarja H. are agreeing with, and that is the role of the church and state (it should be separated).
I wonder if that will be a referendum or a constitutional change soon to make the churches separate from the state.

]]> By: Toveri http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7917 Toveri Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:45:55 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7917 Yeah, I think it's sad that they are making a very, very bad law and the only thing that get knocked down is the most insignificant one. And the only one that would actually benefit artists, not just kick consumers in the nuts. Yeah, I think it’s sad that they are making a very, very bad law and the only thing that get knocked down is the most insignificant one. And the only one that would actually benefit artists, not just kick consumers in the nuts.

]]> By: Eino-Kalevi http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7913 Eino-Kalevi Sat, 10 Sep 2005 00:06:59 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7913 Does "music performed during religious services" cover also other religions than just The Church you are talking about? But a case showing the state and the church are holding hands... "yhteisövero". Does “music performed during religious services” cover also other religions than just The Church you are talking about?

But a case showing the state and the church are holding hands… “yhteisövero”.

]]> By: Phil http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/09/09/finnish-church-and-state-holding-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-7908 Phil Fri, 09 Sep 2005 21:27:10 +0000 /?p=938#comment-7908 Excellent points, Pete! Excellent points, Pete!

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