Keep your Finnish gas masks!!
This is a must see - An open letter from a Jew in Israeli to Erkki Tuomioja about Finland denying the sale of their world-class gas masks to Israel - I’ll highlight the best parts…
Dear Finnish Foreign Minister, It’s a difficult situation and I am dreadfully sorry you are so upset with the Jewish people. We are, after all, only trying to stay alive.
If the newly dubbed “Palestinians” (a name they acquired only in the past 25 years. They called themselves “Arabs” — part of the great Pan Arabian nation — before that.
It really is appalling, but then again, as I said, the world is a difficult place. Finland wasn’t always the cultured, civilized, peaceful country it now is either.
And who knows, perhaps you’re afraid to sell them. Perhaps you’d rather keep them for yourselves. The world being the chaotic and violent place it is — you or your friends may need those masks some day. Islamic terrorism isn’t limited only to Jews.
You’d think that Finland was selling missles to Israeli, but these are just gas masks! What’s the big deal Erkki, let them have their gas masks.
(Thanks Finnpundit for the tip!)
(And special thanks to TobyA for pointing out that this whole letter is complete bunk from 2002)
Phil, a) you’ve just nicked it off Finnpundit, and b) neither of you seem to have noticed this is two years old. I thought you were interested in “current events”? Its a pretty silly letter, but read all the comments - they’re hilarious: all these angry Americans saying they’ll retire their Nokias - what percentage of Nokia’s share value is owned by funds and investors in the US?
Comment by Toby — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 1:15 pm
It was not about gas masks, but device for detection of the chemical warfare agents, which is slightly bigger deal than Kemira’s nasse.
Comment by antti (the red neck one) — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 1:30 pm
Actually Finnpundit sent me the link last night and I forgot to give him credit at the bottom. D’oh!
Comment by Phil — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 1:59 pm
Purely out of interest, what’s your position on the arms embargo on China, Phil? Surely as a free-trader you would support the EU position of ending it and oppose the US position?
Comment by Toby — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 2:16 pm
Old shit, doesn’t even stink when you stir it.
Besides which - the last time Finland sold some high-tech military crap the Israelis reverse engineered it and made a better product.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 2:24 pm
“I thought you were interested in ???current events”?”
But like the tagline says, I’m also interested in political issues and I think this falls under that category, even if it is two years old.
“Purely out of interest, what???s your position on the arms embargo on China, Phil?”
Yup, end it. But I’m surprised the EU agrees with me.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 2:38 pm
I think Antti and Hank hit the nail on the head. The letter is petty polemicising (is that a real word?), mixing up two different stories: a) the refusal 2 years ago to sell Israel two small chemical detectors which the minister of trade at the time, Vil?©n, hinted was due to a past experience of the IDF buying a sample number of a product and then pinching the technology (see: http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20021101IE7 ); and then b) a story from three years ago about Israel being upset by comments Tuomioja made in magazine article (see: http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010831IE5 ). There never were any “gas masks”. Checking up on these kind of things is called “research”, and is what any responsible commentator/journalist/blogger should do. Instead you seem to be sucked into Finnpundit’s little crusade to bring Evil Finland to its knees.
The letter is the worst kind of cynical usage of the Jewish people horrendous historical experience for petty political point scoring now. Its the type of thing that makes people who support a democratic Israel, secure within its borders, embarrassed to be dirtied by association with such cynicism.
Comment by Toby — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 2:47 pm
???Purely out of interest, what???s your position on the arms embargo on China, Phil???Â
“Yup, end it. But I???m surprised the EU agrees with me.” You should write to congressman then, as everyone in US is dead set against it. I’m suprised that you agree with the EU and feel that European arms companies should be allowed to sell weapons to a totalitarian state which has recently passed legislation that directly threatens a democratic state with the use of force. Where’s the “liberty” and “tolerance” in that?
Comment by Toby — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 2:52 pm
“as everyone in US is dead set against it”
That’s why I’m not a Democrat nor a Republican.
They know Taiwan is getting attacked soon and they’ll (US military) will have to fight China with all their brand new weapons.
“Where???s the ???liberty?? and ???tolerance?? in that?”
Companies have the liberty to sell their goods to any country they wish. And with a billion people in their country, I’m sure they have the resources to build their own weapons regardless of whether or not weapons are sold to them from abroad.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 3:08 pm
That’s a bizarre argument man. I guess its fine if you want to live in armed-to-the-teeth world, or put free trade ahead of global security. I suppose then, you think AQ Khan hawking his (well, not really his as he nicked them in the first place) designs for uranium refining centrifuges and nuclear warhead design to Iran, Iraq, Libya, DPRK etc. was just showing other Pakistani entrepreneurs what international free trade is all about?
Comment by Toby — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 3:22 pm
Hey, let’s ban companies from selling weapons to the U.S. cause they’re abusing them way to much - right?
Comment by Phil — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 3:39 pm
Finns know the art of dissemblance to an enormous degree. Most of that was learned during the Cold War, as anti-Russian Finland all of a sudden had to pretend to be friends with its arch-enemy. The whole art actually spawned a unique political stance, finlandization, that has confounded and confused outsiders as to the true meaning of it. Although a successful policy - Finland survived the Cold War - it did create a mind-set in Finland that is hard to shake off, now that there’s no use for it.
For in the end, finlandization is about being two-faced. It was not a case of Finland saying one thing, and meaning the other. What it really amounted to was Finland saying one thing, and meaning it, but then thinking the other thing, only in Finnish. Thus facts are always brought forward to explain a policy position and a stance in a way that displays a certain reasonable logic. But underneath there is always a certain seething contempt.
And that is what the Finnish government???s position in this Israeli sale ban reflects. It is a position straight out of the how-to guidebook on finlandization. Finland is profoundly anti-Semitic, and anti-Israel, - you can hear it all the time, if you understand the language. Yet it gets artfully hidden, especially when Finns explain themselves in another language.
I think that the Israeli reaction was skillfully parried by the Finnish government. The comments on that link reflect the disparate, - and often wild - readings made of the Finnish stance (which is how the Soviets must have reacted at times). Yet, knowing Tuomioja???s political thinking, how can one assume that he was not motivated by anti-Semitism? All Finns know exactly where he is coming from. All Finns know exactly how he feels about Israel. But all Finns also know that the art of finlandization means that you hold the line with certain facts, and never admit exactly how you think and feel.
And, perhaps, that means that there is a dark side, to evil little Finland.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 4:30 pm
Finnpundit, you are unbelievable - you really are! “Finland is profoundly anti-Semitic, and anti-Israel” …like all jews are good with money? “…Never admit exactly how you think and feel”: You are like the old Marxists who when the proletariat of the capitalist liberal democracies said - “no, it OK we don’t want a revolution, we’re happy as we are” would say “no! you’ve all been tricked! It’s all just your false conciousness! That’s not what you really feel.” Its arrogance beyond words to presume to know what others really think.
Of course there are ridiculous anti-semites in Finland, but there also appear to be some pretty ridiculous Finnophobes in the US.
Comment by Toby — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 5:14 pm
There are no Finnophobes in the US, - and that is a problem, because there ought to be more of them. Finland is incredibly duplicitous, and should not be trusted. Especially by Americans.
The blindness Finns have to their own anti-Semitism is admittedly shared by most Europeans. It just boggles the mind to think that Europe doesn’t appreciate the predicament of such a small state being surrounded by an openly genocidal enemy. Especially when Europeans - all Europeans - had a very direct role in the creation of that state. It does seem that one can only get a proper perspective on the matter from across an ocean.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 6:10 pm
And, by the way, it is the responsibility of journalists, - not bloggers - to do research and check up on facts. They’re the ones that have paid fact-checkers on staff. Bloggers should only correct themselves when factual mistakes have been made, which most bloggers wind up doing.
To hold bloggers to journalistic standards would be to stifle the off-the-cuff reactions that make blogs more relevant, honest, and interesting than Main Stream Media. Of course, the EU would like to change that, in order to exert more control on unmediated media. Figures.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 6:16 pm
OK, I’m not great fan of Erkki either and he surely have the general leftist attitude towards Israel, but I object the mentality, that criticizing politics of the state of Israel is antisemitic. For goodness sake, they are humans, they make errors. They are not above criticism. Or does history kicking your ass for hundreds of years make you infallable and entitle you to treat everybody else like you please. If that is the case, with our share of BS Finland should be some damn regional superpower.
It would be ridiculous if I started howling “anti-karelian, anti-fennitic” (or what’s the word) at my boss each time he criticizes my actions. He would think I’m running out of argumentation.
If we were profoundly antisemitic, why didn’t we send our jewish minority to Germany during the WWII. Germans asked for them several times. OK, few refugees and perhaps thousands of russian-jewish prisoners of war ended up there, but the finnish prisoners of war were not much better off in Siberia.
Comment by antti (the red neck one) — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 6:26 pm
It’s funny how to an american right-winger criticising Israel’s policies equals anti-semitism. They are two wildly different things. Being critical about Israel’s actions - and there is a lot to be critical about, does not mean that you hate jews.
Comment by Ayman — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 8:44 pm
Anyone that bothers to read up on internal Israeli debate will see that they are dealing with their policy issues more vigorously than anybody else. Israel is a transparent democracy: we can see that any controversial policy is treated with the utmost scrutiny. And closer study would yield a better appreciation of their multiple predicaments, considering that they are still surrounded by an enemy openly calling for their genocide.
What is not scrutinized with equal vigor is Europe’s anti-Israeli stance. Why? There is such a lack of debate on the issue that some other influence must be inferred, and the only one that fits is a pre-disposed bias on the issue.
As to Finland’s wartime record on the holocaust: it is truly admirable. Finland at key junctures did not cave in to German demands. However, most of that can be attributed to Mannerheim’s leadership on the issue. Should Finland have had some other leader who did not share Mannerheim’s basic antipathy to Germans, things might have wound up differently.
Admittedly, Finnish anti-Semitism is mostly an acquired trait, imported from the rest of Europe. However, - as in so many other cases - because it is shared throughout Europe, Finns wind up assuming it is an “internationally” acceptable stance.
It would be nice to see more independent thinking on the matter. But that would be overly optimistic, when looking at Finland’s record.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 8:50 pm
So as these guys are orthodox jews that makes them what in American logic?
http://www.nkusa.org/
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 9:00 pm
Finnpundit: “However, most of that can be attributed to Mannerheim???s leadership on the issue. Should Finland have had some other leader who did not share Mannerheim???s basic antipathy to Germans, things might have wound up differently.”
Err… Can’t you say that about any other nation? “They are truly evil. They just happened to have a leader who wasn’t that evil and that’s because they don’t look like evil.”
What a convincing argument.
Comment by sj — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 10:09 pm
Hank W: all the more reason to appreciate how vigorous the internal debate is within the Jewish community. They tolerate a whole range of views. It would be nice to see some of that in European countries, as well.
sj: try not to resort to facile relativism. Mannerheim made a call that set the tone on how to handle the issue for the whole government. If he hadn’t, the outcome might have been totally different.
What this basically means is that Finns did not have a more developed sense of justice, compared to the rest of Europe at the time. They just lucked out with a leader who made the right decision at the right time.
Keep in mind that Finns still wound up deporting tens of thousands of Inkeril?¤isi?¤, many of them to a certain doom. And by that time, Mannerheim was in exile in Switzerland.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 10:39 pm
Israeli’s should check out their own modus operandi first before blaming the europeans. In the seventies, Mossad screwed up and killed innocent moroccan waiter in Lillehammer, Norway. Finnish peacekeepers were taken hostages in the 80’s by Israel backed SLA in Lebanon and some years later, IDF fired their observation post with artillery. French engineers were killed, when Israel bombed the Osirak reactor in Iraq in the 80’s (Remember, Saddam was then darling of the west.)
For this kind of record, I think Israel has reasonably good relations with the european countries.
Comment by antti (the red neck one) — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 10:41 pm
Keep in mind that Finns still wound up repatriating tens of thousands of USSR citizens, many of them to a certain doom, on the orders of the “Allied Control Commission” - Howcome you all of a sudden find fault of the great democratic ally of USA and UK? Howcome in 1939 Stalin is bad, in 1942 good, and then in 1945 bad again?
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 10:46 pm
Mannerheim didn’t “make a call”. He was 72 years old in 1939 and was called to be the commander of the armed forces from retirement. Kallio and Ryti were the ruling presidents, until Mannerheim was elected in 1944. Mannerheim was a moral figure with much say, but he didn’t make political decisions.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 10:58 pm
Finnpundit - They tolerate a whole range of views. It would be nice to see some of that in Americans as well.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 10:59 pm
Considering how much European funding and support went to Palestinian terrorists, I don’t think Israel has had any reason to trust European intentions.
Actually, I’m kind of sad that those Finnish peacekeeper hostages weren’t killed, considering how Siilasvuo screwed up when he voluntarily withdrew UN peacekeepers from the Sinai at the demand of Egypt, precipitating the Arab-Israeli war of 1973. Can’t Finland at least for once show some of that backbone it used to have?
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 11:06 pm
Actually, the Finnish government was ambivalent on how to handle the German request that Finland participate in the Final Solution. Ryti was president at the time, but he wasn’t exactly a strong leader, and the government initially complied with the request: that was how those famous 8 Jews were deported to Auschwitz. However, when Mannerheim heard about it, he expressed an opinion - that it’s inappropriate for a foreign power to be meddling in the internal affairs of Finland - that eventually wound up being the tack taken by all levels of government. Eventually it hardened into policy. Nobody but Mannerheim had the prestige to make such a call at the time.
As to the west’s relationship with Stalin, agreed. It was naive to think that he could be influenced, which was the underlying rationale behind the Allied alliance. However, if Finland had some stronger statesmanship at the time, the deportations might have been avoided. The point is that Finland doesn’t hold any monopoly on virtuous behaviour.
Comment by Finnpundit — Fri, Apr 29th, 2005 @ 11:22 pm
Mercifully Tuomioja’s sell-by date is approaching, and approaching fast.
Comment by Antti — Sat, Apr 30th, 2005 @ 5:06 am
Yeah, right. And those peacekeepers were responsible for what Siilasvuo screwed and deserve to be killed. The UN troops still have quite limited mandate. They are allowed to be there, if both parties of the conflict accept their presence.
Comment by antti (the red neck one) — Sat, Apr 30th, 2005 @ 7:29 am
What comes to european aid ending up in the hands of the militant palestinians, I would attribute it more to “beneficial idiotism”, as defined by Lenin, of the world-improving left than to antisemitism.
Comment by antti (the red neck one) — Sat, Apr 30th, 2005 @ 10:46 am
Why does the self-proclaimed “libertarian” Finnpundit suddenly defend a welfare state like Israel with such zeal? A socialist (in the American sense of the word) country with years of mandatory military service, heavily regulated economy and massive government programs to settle immigrants. A country where you can’t even buy property freely if you are not a member of the state religion.
Comment by Erik — Sat, Apr 30th, 2005 @ 11:20 am
Finnpundit - everyone talks about the “8 deported” but very conveniently forgets about the several hundreds of jewish refugees given residence permits or let travel freely to Sweden.
Americans especially should reflect on one ship called St. Louis in comparison.
And before ranting on Mannerheim and Onkel Adi’s visit, how about Henry Ford’s Golden Eagle?
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Apr 30th, 2005 @ 7:34 pm
Dunno, because of some odd reason theres so many Palestinian refugees in Finland I just wonder what that makes to the opinions.
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Apr 30th, 2005 @ 7:36 pm
Heres a little history lesson, enjoy.
n May 13, 1939 the 16,732 ton German luxury liner St. Louis set sail from Hamburg with 937 Jewish refugees on board. They believed they had bought visas to enter Cuba. Arriving in Havana they were told that their visas were worthless, in fact, a confidence trick of some Cuban politicians out to make money. Not allowed to disembark, quite a few passengers committed suicide rather than return to Germany.
The ship then set sail for Miami in the hope that the US would accept them. This was not to be, the opposition too great as the country already had two million unemployed. Negotiations then took place between Britain, France, Holland and Belgium. England agreed to take 287, France 224, Holland 181 and Belgium 214. On June 17, the St. Louis docked in Antwerp and disembarkation began. It marked not the end of their journey but the beginning of an even more tragic episode in their lives. Those accepted by Britain survived the war but those who settled in France, Holland and Belgium, were overtaken by the Holocaust when Germany invaded these countries. By the summer of 1941 only 167,245 Jews remained in Germany.
After the German takeover of Poland, close to 15,000 Polish Jews trudged the wet and muddy roads of Poland in an attempt to escape the Nazi holocaust and reach the relative safety of Vilna in the Baltic state of Lithuania. When Russia formally annexed Lithuania in June, these desperate refugees were once again trapped. Russia didn’t want its Jews, Britain was unwilling to let them into Palestine, in fact the rest of the world turned its back on these unfortunate people. In Lithuania the Soviets tried to create a communist utopia and anyone wanting to leave was considered mad or a traitor to the cause. Those who applied for permission to leave ended up in the slave labour camps of Siberia. Finally, when exit permits were issued the Intourist Office demanded 200 American dollars from each for their trip across Russia to Japan.
The first group of 72 Jews were then on their way to the Russian port of Vladivostok. From there it would be a short hop, skip and jump to Japan where it was hoped a visa for the USA would be issued. After crossing the Sea of Japan their ship docked at Tsuruga in Japan, the only country willing to welcome them. As more refugees began to arrive they found accommodation in Kobe and in Japanese controlled Shanghai where a one square mile area was set aside for them. This in effect was the creation of the first Jewish Ghetto in Asia. Before the harsh winter of 1943/44 ended around 300 Jews had died from Typhus and other diseases. Worse was to come. A Japanese radio station within the camp was targeted by US bombers.
As the war situation for Japan grew more hopeless, the big fear was what would the Japanese response be to losing the war. Japan had signed a pact of neutrality with Germany and Italy and Germany was demanding that Japan stop treating the Jews with kid gloves. Would they all be executed as a final show of loyalty to Nazi Germany? It was then decided to reincarnate the Fugu Plan formulated in 1939 to settle the Jews in a new Jewish state in Manchukuo in Manchuria where the Japanese would co-operate with the Jews to build a better society after the war. With Japan’s surrender, the Shanghai Jews were lucky to survive the war. In 1948, the state of Israel was created and here the last remaining Jews of Shanghai were resettled.
Actually, there was a “Jewish Oblast” in Manchurian border of Siberia.
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Apr 30th, 2005 @ 9:16 pm
And your point being…?
Comment by Finnpundit — Sun, May 1st, 2005 @ 3:24 am
Finnpundit said: “And, by the way, it is the responsibility of journalists, - not bloggers - to do research and check up on facts. They???re the ones that have paid fact-checkers on staff. Bloggers should only correct themselves when factual mistakes have been made, which most bloggers wind up doing.”
Fair enough. I will now on know that your blog is a mix of fact and fiction. I notice your blog still talks about the sale of “gas masks”.
Comment by Toby — Sun, May 1st, 2005 @ 4:14 pm
If you’ve noticed in the comments section, I correct that mistake.
I welcome correction of facts that I agree are facts. As to claims of fiction, well, there’s where the debates begin.
Comment by Finnpundit — Sun, May 1st, 2005 @ 5:49 pm
Finnpundit: “The point is that Finland doesn???t hold any monopoly on virtuous behaviour.”
Did anybody claim that Finland would be any more virtuous than nations on average? Previously your point seemed to be that Finland is pretty much the most deceptive and evil nation in the world. Why this sudden backpedalling?
Comment by sj — Sun, May 1st, 2005 @ 5:52 pm
Finnpundit - my point being you need to know history before you talk about it.
Comment by Hank W. — Sun, May 1st, 2005 @ 11:32 pm
sj: Finland does claim to be amongst the virtuous. As an example, witness how The Bimbo Of Finland decides to lecture other nations on “international law” and morality in the UN, when such “laws” are not binding. One only takes that kind of a stance if one thinks they have a virtuous stance to stand on.
And as to Finland being a deceptive nation, yes, that is true. As I’ve said earlier, finlandization was a policy line that deeply corrupted political thinking in Finland. It was effective as policy, for a time, but there’s a heavy price to pay, as Finnish leaders are unable to shake off the habit even when conditions to its adoption have disappeared.
Hank W., I’ve known the history of all that you’ve described. Nothing that I’ve said contradicts what you’ve described. So, again, what’s your point?
Comment by Finnpundit — Mon, May 2nd, 2005 @ 12:17 am
What a shame that we do not have a population of 280 million, nukes in the silos, and a unilateralist foreign policy. For if we had, we, too, could doubtless squawk that whenever the likes of Finnfuckwit opens up his vitriol bottle it is mere “AntiFennicism” or that he is an “Anti-Finnougrite” jealous at our success. As it is, we are supposed to bend over and take his nonsense up the arse and say: “Thank you very much, sir, can I have another?” His splenetic ranting is so over the top as to make him a laughing stock. Fortunately most of the readers will now cast a much warier eye on his free rein with facts.
You really should come to Finland in the summer, Finnpundit. I’m sure the wife-carrying competitions could be modified to allow you to carry the enormous chip you appear to have coming out of your shoulder.
Comment by Woe is us — Mon, May 2nd, 2005 @ 10:02 pm
Ah, when they resort to profanity, one knows that basically they’ve run out of arguments.
Comment by Finnpundit — Mon, May 2nd, 2005 @ 10:55 pm
And don’t the ones who resort to name-calling and profanity ever seem to leave the same name twice when they post, or leave their e-mail address or a URL to their home site? Hmmmm….
Comment by Phil — Mon, May 2nd, 2005 @ 11:00 pm
No, they have simply run out of patience that the likes of this one-eyed misanthrope lurking in New York is actually given the time of day in polite society. Your shtick is growing old fast, Finnpundit. People have rumbled you for what you are, a myopic windbag who needs to go out and get laid and stop worrying about the perceived malaises of a little country 4,000 miles away. I think you’ll find you have bigger problems on your own doorstep.
Doubtless many are wondering what it was or who it was that gave you that monumental anti-Finnish chip on your shoulder - she must have really messed with your little pointed head, bless her heart.
There IS no rational argument to be had with one so profoundly blinkered, and there is no pleasure to be had in wrestling with a dead sheep. The best thing to do is to hold one’s nose and hope it rots quickly.
Comment by Woe is us — Mon, May 2nd, 2005 @ 11:14 pm
The significant sexual imagery is all your own, though. And it does seem to point out some strange fascination you seem to have with necrophilia. Do all Finns think like you do?
Comment by Finnpundit — Mon, May 2nd, 2005 @ 11:42 pm
Oh dear. Well, it seems we shall have to explain in simple terms and words of one syllable why your “argument” on this subject reeks like a dead sheep.
Please address the issues put forward in this letter to the Simon Wiesenthal Center. The spelling and syntactical errors are the original writer’s. The case of the gas detectors was, as has been amply pointed out by other minds before me, very much more one of the protection of intellectual property rights than of depriving the Israeli people (or as many of them as could be safeguarded by TWO gas detectors) of the protection they deserve (and I feel VERY few would disagree with you on that score) in the face of what is a very dangerous and disturbing situation. One that none of us sitting comfortably in Helsinki or New York would wish to share.
Pvm: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:21:03 +0200
L?¤hett?¤j?¤: “Sauli Suikkanen” <0505250…@mobiili.net
Vastaanottaja: informat…@wiesenthal.net
Otsikko: Israel trade with Finland
To The Simon Weisenthal Center, Abraham Cooper
The Simon Wiesenthal Center has recently, among certain other US citizens, showed concern about Finland’s recent decision of not to give export permission to two gas detectors to Israel.
http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemId=6664
First, I would like to point out that Israel has not ratified
The Chemical Weapons Convention treaty, essentially leaving
itself in to same category with Syria and Libya, except of
course that they don’t possess atomic weapons, as Israel does.
http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/cwcunderstanding.asp.
There seems to be enough published evidence of Israel’s CW
program:
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/pgsd/people/staffpubs/Avner-CBWart.pdf.
Israel has also showed long-term reluctance to
comply with a number of United Nations resolutions and in
several cases refused to co-operate with the UN, alike Iraq.
Israel has also violated the human rights of the Palestinians
in areas that it has occupied for 35 years.
Thus in this light some claims of the SWC look somewhat
hypocritical and dubious.
But as I, besides The Simon Wiesenthal Center and Jewish
communities of USA, also am concerned about the wellfare and
safety of the citizens of Israel, I will make an educated guess:
The government of Finland will probably review it’s current stand
on not to give export permission to certain advanced gas
detectors to Israel, if, - and if - , the Israeli trade partner
will show honest means of doing long term business by reviewing
the number of gas detectors it intends to acquire. Shall we
say, 100 to 1000 gas detectors instead of only 2, for starters?
Wouldn’t that be a true manifestation of willingness to protect
the Israel?
To say the former in other way: the current status of the
copyright and patent infringement laws and their enforcement in
Israel, besides the general attitudes towards intellectual
property protection there, proven in a number of real life
cases, leave a lot to be desired. But as it is said: if there
is a will, there is a way. We just hope that the friends of
the Israel wouldn’t try to pursue their objectives in such a
manner that easily gives the impression of means of
contributing to Israeli high-tech industry’s technological
shortcut advancement, at the cost of small innovative Finnish
enterprises and the jobs of their employees.
Regards,
Sauli T. Suikkanen
Espoo, Otaniemi
Finland
I have no idea who this Sauli is, but he has hit the nail firmly on the head. Why TWO gas detectors? Are the Finns ALSO guilty of lying about the earlier incident that led to their scepticism over this case? On what do you base your assumption that they are lying? Please don’t say “They are all anti-semites”. I think we have been through that one.
Comment by Woe is us — Tue, May 3rd, 2005 @ 12:01 am
As I pointed out earlier, this kind of a response is a reflection of finlandization, namely, hold on to specific points of logic to give the impression that the argument does not have an inherent bias. This was a skill developed and employed by the Finns countless of times when trading with the Soviets.
At the beginning of the letter we can already see that the author has a specific bias. And his conjecture that the Israelis were going to “steal” (after all, that’s what Jews do) the important patent rights was rather disingenious, given that they simply could also have just wished to test some prototypes in the prospect of putting in a larger order. It is Suikkanen that goes on a limb to make that biased conjecture; we can only assume that he might harbor an inherent anti-Semitic bias for doing so.
Comment by Finnpundit — Tue, May 3rd, 2005 @ 12:19 am
Yes, we COULD assume that. And you do. It is not the only assumption one could make, however. And yet you argue from a position of complete LACK of bias in coming down on that side of the scales. In other words you deny flatly that there is any semblance of possibility that the truth could have been that the IDF pulled a fast one two years previously, just as the FDF might have done, or even the DoD, were they in the same tempting situation. I’m not sure if you are naive or simply pathologically unable to accept a charge that Israelis, like Finns, and like most any other inhabitants of the planet, are capable of deception out of self-interest. It is not “what Jews do” - I’m so glad it was you who wrote that and not anyone else on here - it is what governments (and even individuals) do to one another. Sadly, rather often.
In other words, to paraphrase “At the beginning of the second paragraph of your post above ‘we can already see that the author has a specific bias’”. Or else he’s a complete neophyte.
Except your bias is alright. It’s only bias that disagrees with your point of view that is skewed and “anti-semitic”.
This is YOUR “specific point of logic”. A reflection of we know not what.
“O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
No more of that.” (King Lear)
And please, it is disinGENUOUS. A word I’m surprised you slipped up on.
Comment by Woe is us — Tue, May 3rd, 2005 @ 12:40 am
Ah well, Woe, you win the Spelling Bee. That merits a Brownie point, for sure. But how did you do in the argumentation?
Let???s examine that open letter a bit further. This guy Sauli Suikkanen decided to answer on behalf of the Finnish government, incensed as he was to this latest calumny against Finnish righteousness. His first salvos are, - in his mind ??? certain inviolably ???international?? determinations that the state of Israel has somehow sinned against international justice. This appeal for an ill-defined universal justice is weak to begin with, as we all know it isn???t ???international?? at all: Europeans just take it upon themselves to assume that they have the moral grounding to define what is internationally just. So, though weak, he tries to gain the moral high ground, forgetting that it would be more useful to address an adversarial argument with a basis acceptable to the opponent.
The heart of his argument is there must be some connivance on the part of Israel to just put in an order for only two of the gas detectors. He assumes, - based on some vague mentions of past behavior he doesn???t bother elaborating on - that the purpose of the Israelis is only to study these two devices in order to steal the patented secrets of the devices, thus robbing honest Finnish engineers and laborers of the fruits of their labors. Yet if that truly was the intention of the Israelis, don???t you think Mossad would have done that already by purchasing such devices through the numerous front companies intelligence agencies the world over operate for the purposes of industrial espionage?
It seems to me that here was an honest attempt by Israel to do the right thing, by buying some prototypes, testing them in their own domestic conditions, and then attempting to establish a trade relationship with a nation they would very much like to have good relations with. In fact, in many ways, this purchase attempt was most likely a feeler ??? a test case ??? for whether or not Finland had evolved to the point that it would supply products to Israel designed primarily for civilian defense.
Of course, thanks to that blind fool, Tuomioja, and his numerous acolytes in Finland (like Suikkanen), the test showed that Finland was not willing to bridge the gap. Most likely Mossad will have acquired the device surreptitiously by now, and will manufacture a knock-off, modified enough so as not to elicit patent-infringement suits (and good for them). The company that designed the product lost a major sale, - major, considering the use of such devices in a known danger zone would be a great selling point - and Finland lost a chance to enhance an export market.
And what was gained for Finland? A morally higher ground? Hardly. For this incident just gave added indication that there is an operative at play in Finnish political decision-making when it comes to Israel. And that operative ??? anti-Semitism ??? is perhaps a harder reputation to shake than any short-term political points won by Tuomioja. Those points, after all, will hardly be noticed in the outside world, yet they will serve to enforce the smug, self-righteous, anti-Semitic stance of Finns at home.
Which, most likely, was not such an unwelcome result for a welfare-state adherent like Tuomioja, who needs to find outside enemies (Israel and, by extension, the US) in order to justify that state???s existence. Anti-Semitism, after all, has been used in the past to build national support for all kinds of state authorities??¦.
Comment by Finnpundit — Tue, May 3rd, 2005 @ 7:04 am
Something a bit different, yet relevant in a way…
Last year, in Hungary, Austro-Ukrainian-Israeli business was caught selling tons of (mainly German) food that was 2 years off. I take it as attempt of food poisoning…
Yesterday, with the help of the CAI, 13 people were caught in Hungary –inc. 3 Israeli citizens- that were making false bills in the value of 11 milliard Ft during the last 6 years, giving financial support to Russian criminals…(Thanks a lot)
My government openly calls himself not Hungarian, but “internationalâ€Â, (so don’t blame us if they do something bad)-wants to have a new subject in the school called holocaust. Why? It is already inc. in the subject of history! Meanwhile, we are not allowed even to talk openly about the real history of my country.
They started to destroy all our national symbols too, spreading around the world that our 2000 years old red/white flag in ‘nazi’, everyone with national colours are extremist and they will destroy our “Turul†statue in Buda too…
This government wants to exterminate my nation morally, financially and physically too…
When 2 left politician were caught on “child pornâ€Â, my government wanted to change the law about the age limit of taking part in such things to the age of 14!!!
Moreover, there is a cartoon series (made by nameless people), where the style is: our biggest national hero shags a horse; Virgin Mary is raped by solders… etc.
If people go on the street to demonstrate for their rights, they are beaten up, imprisoned and marked as anti-Semite. And they even manage to spread lies around the world…
(what had really happened: http://www.pestylaszlo.hu/)
Who makes these things? How can they win such court cases? Who want to make us believe that all this is not done by Christians?
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