Nobody is forcing me to go to smoke-filled clubs, but nobody is giving me any alternatives either. As many people seem to think that smoking is an essential part of going out, every place is full of smoke. Legal restrictions seem to be the only possible way to create smoke-free clubs and thus I support them full time. I want to enjoy the music, but I don’t want to choke on smoke.

Besides, it’s not like smoking is actually any good for anybody except the great Satan of tobacco industry (this from a non-smoker, but I’m under the impression that smoking, for most people, is an addiction, not something done for the pleasure it gives). Perhaps smoke-free establishments would be an incentive for some to actually quit smoking (especially those who only smoke when they go out)? I’d say that’s a big bonus if any.

There’s no alternatives? There’s plenty of bars & restauarants with smoke-free areas, and there not just there because the government forces them too. Whenever I enter a restauarant, I always ask for the non-smoking section. If they didn’t have one, I would leave. As far as clubs go, they’re “clubs”, you wanna join my board game club, you gotta abide my club’s rules…right? If not, go find yourself another club. Like I said, it’s private property and no one is forcing you to go there. You say there’s no alternatives but I can think of a million other things to do other than goto a club.

Restaurants, yeah – I’ve never had trouble with smoking in restaurants and there are lots of good alternatives to clubbing. Indeed, the best club is at home where there are no idiots, the music is brilliant and the booze is cheaper. However, if you want to go and see a band, that’s where the alternatives end. In Tampere bands come to either Yo-talo, Pakkahuone and Klubi, all of which allow smoking. So, no bloody non-smoking alternatives. Best gigs this year were Nick Cave and Marianne Faithfull, both at Kulttuuritalo. Both were also brilliant gigs in this respect: only artists smoked. It was great and I sure would love to have smokefree gigs. Unfortunately that’s just not possible.

It’s not like smoking is a huge source of profits, either. Sure they sell some cigarettes at the clubs, but I don’t think it’s a major source of income for the clubs, when compared to selling alcohol for example.

Well there’s drinking going on at these clubs and there’s plenty of non-drinkers out there, and lots of us light-drinkers who can stand all the drunken behavior. Like cigarettes, drunken behavior can be dangerous to other people’s health. But we still tolerate it.

If a smoker and club owner thinks it’s okay to smoke, I don’t see why lil ol’ you should stop them. It’s 2 against 1 and you lose, democracy right?

Plus, you’re just enabling these club owners to allowing smoking by purchasing those tickets. They’d make a no-smoking policy if people actually demanded it. People should boycott these smoke-filled clubs, if enough people do it, they’ll change their policies guaranteed. The government doesn’t always need to step on people’s property rights like this, the citizens can take care of this themselves.

…and I won’t even get into the fact that many many doctors don’t even believe that second-hand smokes effects your health.

Drinking and smoking are so not comparable. Having a drunken person nearby doesn’t automatically hurt your health. Having a smoker nearby does.

And where do you find these doctors who don’t believe second-hand smoking is not dangerous? Are they perhaps employed by Philip Morris?

Basically I’d buy your reasoning, but there’s the health aspect as well. Smoking hurts innocent bystanders in a rather direct way, too. Banning smoking altogether would be the best option in my opinion, but then again, I’m extreme and also afraid that we’ll never see that happen.

I don’t think a boycott would really help, either. People aren’t going to miss their fav band because of a non-smoking boycott. They’d rather suffer the smoke, because it’s not that bad every once in a while. It’s tolerable, as you said. I won’t mind either, in the end – those bloody smokers won’t keep me from attending an interesting gig. While I would like to boycott the establishment, I want to support the band – what can I do? And it’s not like the bands have any say in it either. It’s already difficult to enough for some bands to find locations where underaged fans can come see the band.

Whether we boycott or not, ask me or any non-smoker would we rather go to a smoke-free club and the answer is obvious.

Nope, many independant doctors truly believe that second-hand smoke does not effect your health. I can’t believe it either but I constantly hear reports about this. One thing is for sure: second hand smoke is annoying as hell!!

Mikko, you must not have much faith in your fellow countrymen. Boycotts are quite effective, they were popular in the United States. Nowadays, in Finland & the U.S., people always look to the government first before handling things themselves.

Oh, and I do think bands could request a non-smoking club if they wanted too…but they choose not too.

You say you would like to ban smoking altogether, just wondering, what’s your thoughts on abortion then? Surely you wouldn’t allow the killing of innocent fetuses but want to ban some dude smoking a cigarette in his own house…would you??

Hey Mikko, another quick question – What’s wrong with some guy sitting in the privacy of his own home smoking a cigarette, assuming the smoke isn’t reaching another neighbor?

Oh the great Nanny-state is here to ruin the liberal’s day again.

Well I’ve heard that in Norway the smoking is already banned in restaurants! And it’s working great. Besides, smoking is stupid after all.

“Being a non-smoker, if I were to walk into a smoke-filled restaurant or pub and felt uncomfortable, I would leave”

It’s not so simple! What if smoker-friends go to a smoke-filled restaurant and you don’t want to be left alone.

But you sure make a good point. If I were a liberal living in a terrible socialist nanny-state crowded with stupid people, I would move to another country!

“It???s not so simple! What if smoker-friends go to a smoke-filled restaurant and you don???t want to be left alone.”

What if druggie-friends go to do drugs and you don’t want to be left alone?

Those smoke-free areas where you “choose” to sit didn’t even exist in Finnish bars until the late 90s when they were required by law for the first time. The sad fact is, if the law wasn’t there, you’d probably have to “choose” to drink your beer in a park unless you wanted to enjoy the smog.

Peterelk, do you think all those smoke-free areas would suddenly disappear if the law was abolished tomorrow?

I certainly don’t.

I just wanted to point out that in the libertarian ideal world the non-smoking sections wouldn’t be there in the first place, as the government would have refrained from “violating” bar-owners’ right to choose how they run their businesses.

Theoretically, of course, consumers could have voted with their feet and boycott establishments with no non-smoking sections, but a) somehow I don’t see that happening in Finland, and b) their option would have been to stay at home, because there were no smoke-free options they could have favored instead.

You bring up a good point Peter, you say, “a) somehow I don???t see that happening in Finland,”

Why don’t you see that happening in Finland? Why do you think boycotts are popular in the U.S. but not Finland?

So do you think restaurant owners should also get to decide if it’s okay to use hard drugs on their property?

Not a very subtle allegory, but in many ways valid. With the exeption that non-junkies wouldn’t go to a restaurant that allowed it. Exept if it was a smoke-free restaurant, because it would propably be the only on in 500km radius.

“So do you think restaurant owners should also get to decide if it???s okay to use hard drugs on their property?”

Yes, I believe that drugs are a personal issue and not a state issue and should be decriminilized. But having junkies at your restaurant would be quick way to bankruptcy and you won’t find many, if any, restaurants that would permit their patrons to shoot-up as they order desert.

“Oh, and I do think bands could request a non-smoking club if they wanted too??¦but they choose not too.”

If they can’t request a venue suitable for underaged fans, I don’t believe they can get a non-smoking venue. Unless they’re really big, of course.

“Surely you wouldn???t allow the killing of innocent fetuses but want to ban some dude smoking a cigarette in his own house??¦would you?? … What???s wrong with some guy sitting in the privacy of his own home smoking a cigarette, assuming the smoke isn???t reaching another neighbor?”

Nothing. But I sure as hell would like to get that bastard quit who smokes in our building, because the stench doesn’t stay in his apartment… Also, if you don’t own the apartment, you’re causing damage to it by smoking – the smell sticks and if the next tenant is asthmatic, there may be trouble.

And yeah, abortion is fine, because women have a right to choose (and I don’t consider fetuses to be living humans, at least in the stage where abortions are usually done – abortion is not murder). Besides, someone getting aborted doesn’t cause cancer in me. Don’t try to make a nazi out of me.

Smokers too have a right to choose and as long as smoking is legal in Finland, I have nothing against anyone smoking in private places – as long as the smoke and the stench don’t bother anybody else.

“What if druggie-friends go to do drugs and you don???t want to be left alone?”

I’m not friends with druggies. I know people who, unfortunately, smoke.

“Why don???t you see that happening in Finland? Why do you think boycotts are popular in the U.S. but not Finland?”

Tell me how on earth can you boycott a gig where the tickets are sold out in day or two? What difference does it make whether you boycott or not? It simply doesn’t matter. And once again – people are not going to miss a good gig to protest against smoking. Thus, no boycott.

“I believe that drugs are a personal issue and not a state issue and should be decriminilized.”

In that case, my friend, you are way beyond redemption.

“Why don???t you see that happening in Finland? Why do you think boycotts are popular in the U.S. but not Finland?”

Because Finns wouldn’t want to miss the opportunity to get drunk on a Saturday night:-)

But seriously, I think this is an interesting issue. Some 100 years ago, Finland had a grand tradition of citizen participation, but somewhere along the way it has, if not vanished altogether, then at least weakened significantly. Today’s Finns are more interested in taking care of their own business than sacrificing a little bit of time or money for a greater cause. (One would of course imagine breathing smoke against one’s will would be his/her own business.)

Why this is so is difficult to explain. I suspect it has something to do with the government taking care of so many things these days. Also, unlike most Americans, Italians or Frenchmen, many Finns believe state/government is inherently good. Finns believe government officials “know better” and are able to, well, govern, wisely without any “intereference” coming from the public.

I once tried to touch upon this issue, but I doubt my attempt was very successful.

Mikko, you said earlier, “Banning smoking altogether would be the best option in my opinion” – then you say there’s nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn’t bother you. Which one do you want? A smoking ban or not?

Then you say, ” I have nothing against anyone smoking in private places ” – exactly, private places. A club is a private place, like someone’s home. I set the rules in my house, why can’t I set the rules in my club?

Mikko…

Then, about my views on drugs, you say, “In that case, my friend, you are way beyond redemption.” but right before that you say, “And yeah, abortion is fine, because women have a right to choose”

…I completely agree, a woman has a right to choose. She has a right to choose to kill her fetus and she has a right to choose what she puts in her mouth (drugs). Seriously, what’s wrong with somebody sitting in the privacy of their own home and smoking marjiuana? Who does effect other than the user? Although I don’t agree, one could argue that abortion isn’t a victimless crime – but no one could disagree that smoking pot *IS* a victimless crime.

“I suspect it has something to do with the government taking care of so many things these days.”

Peter, you took the words right out of my mouth!!

Boycotts use the same “supply and demand” charts that are used in economics. There is no ‘supply’ of boycotts because there is no ‘demand’ because the government decides for the people.

Re: drugs. While I can see why someone would support legalisation of cannabis (I don’t), you talked about drugs in general and I wouldn’t in any case legalise hard drugs. It’s not a personal issue, because a drug addict must pay for the habit (legal drugs wouldn’t be free or necessarily even cheap) and who would hire an addict? They’d still have to steal to fund the habit and that has a direct effect on my security.

If I was a dictator, I would ban smoking as something useless and harmful. But I’m not and I must tolerate it like everyone else does. How’s that so difficult to understand?

Clubs are privately-owned but open to public, so we’re basically using the word private in different sense. In the end this all comes down to one’s opinion on where the government can intervene. My idea of good government has more room for intervention than yours, obviously, and this is an issue where we must agree to disagree. I can’t see one of us converting the other.

And hey, you have the right to boycott Finland if you don’t like the system. There are alternatives to Finland and some of those alternatives are more libertarian – so why are you still in Finland? You have a right to choose!

Mikko-

“It???s not a personal issue, because a drug addict must pay for the habit (legal drugs wouldn???t be free or necessarily even cheap) and who would hire an addict? They???d still have to steal to fund the habit and that has a direct effect on my security.”

Cannabis would cost about the same amount to produce as lettuce. Cocaine would cost about the same amount to produce as sugar. Are people stealing in order to buy a salad or put sugar in their coffee? Of course not. Now if you lefties would tax it heavily then maybe they would.

“Clubs are privately-owned but open to public, so we???re basically using the word private in different sense.”

Private property is private property. Your house should have the same rules as your club if you want. It may be open to the public, but you shouldn’t have to let in anyone you don’t want to for whatever reason you want.

“There are alternatives to Finland and some of those alternatives are more libertarian – so why are you still in Finland? You have a right to choose!”

Why do all you lefties always finish off a political debate with a phrase like that? If I had a nickel for everytime someone said that, I could quit my job and design board games all day. Just cause I criticize the government doesn’t mean I want to flee it – I absolutely LOVE Finland, I just hate the government. Believe it or not, I used to criticize the U.S. government even more than the Finnish government.

“My idea of good government has more room for intervention than yours, obviously, and this is an issue where we must agree to disagree. I can???t see one of us converting the other”

Yes, we’ll never convert one another. You are a statist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statist) – you believe that the government can make better decisions for its citizens than the citizens themselves. You generally don’t have much trust or faith in your fellow countrymen and basically feel they need a nanny because they’re too stupid/lazy/immature/careless/whatever to make the “best” decisions for themselves. But you’re from Tampere so you were probably born that way.

Hey Mikko, one thing we most definitely can agree on is that German board games kick ass!! Our Vatican City and Mecca is Essen.

“Why do all you lefties always finish off a political debate with a phrase like that?”

Well it’s better to finish than not to finish at all!

What about your own phrases? “I would move to a non-smoking club”, “I would move to a bigger city”… it’s always the same!

“What about your own phrases? ???I would move to a non-smoking club”, ???I would move to a bigger city”??¦ it???s always the same”

huh??

” Cocaine would cost about the same amount to produce as sugar.”

Come on! Cost to produce is not the same as the cost to sell. If crime mobs are raking truckloads of money on drugs, do you seriously think they’d give up their biggest income? And the effects of drugs on people aren’t going to be any tamer if the drugs are legal – junkies would still be aggressive, unpredictable and dangerous.

And besides, who’d produce legal chemicals? The product responsibility issues would be huge! If someone OD’s, the producer of the stuff he was using would have to pay – who in their right minds would produce something that risky? Most current drugs wouldn’t be suitable for marketing.

“Private property is private property.”

Polluting the air and causing cancer in other people isn’t a private, personal issue. I’m not backing up on that.

“I absolutely LOVE Finland”

Really? Because, seriously, you sound like someone who absolutely loathes the Finnish system and Finnish way of life. I mean it. That’s the first positive thing I think I’ve heard you say about Finland.

I wouldn’t want to live in a place where I’d hate the government. I want a government I can trust and appreciate. The Finnish system has it’s flaws, but the basic idea works. Were things different, I’d rather live somewhere else.

“you believe that the government can make better decisions for its citizens than the citizens themselves”

But goverment isn’t an entity completely apart from citizens! Government represents the opinion of the citizens – fairly or less fairly, can be argued, but it is formed by citizens.

I feel safer when government regulates certain things (eg. drugs, guns, traffic).

“But you???re from Tampere so you were probably born that way.”

I recommend you check your facts before you start calling names.

“If crime mobs are raking truckloads of money on drugs, do you seriously think they???d give up their biggest income?”

When cocaine costs the same as sugar to produce, crime bosses are going to have to find other jobs. It will put them out of the drug business – one of the many reasons why I think drugs should be decriminalized.

“Because, seriously, you sound like someone who absolutely loathes the Finnish system and Finnish way of life. I mean it.”

There’s a very famous quote you should get to know…

“Love your country, fear your government.”

I love the Finnish “way of life” but you’re right, I loath the Nordic welfare state…and I loathe the U.S.’s system even more and never really liked the American way of life. So moving from the U.S. to Finland was a big improvement for me in both government & way of life.

With your reasoning, I’d guess that Suvi-Anne Siimes is the biggest Finland-hater of them all cause she criticizes the government more than anyone I know.

“I recommend you check your facts before you start calling names”

Names?! I just called you a ‘statist’ which you and most of the left-wing community are. It’s not an insult or anything, it’s just a political philosophy. You can call me a “libertarian” or “liberal” and I promise I won’t get offended.

Re: drugs – how come you have nothing to say about my other point? I think it’s quite important too. Would you be interested in producing hard drugs as a living?

“Names?! I just called you a ???statist??? which you and most of the left-wing community are.”

Nah, I’m not offended by that because it’s true at least to some extent. But I’m not from Tampere, that’s a bad mistake. My wife is, though, so you better watch your mouth.

“With your reasoning, I???d guess that Suvi-Anne Siimes is the biggest Finland-hater of them all cause she criticizes the government more than anyone I know.”

Considering party she leads is in opposition, I’d say that’s her job.

It’s not just about criticizing the government, it’s that you never seem to bring up anything positive about Finland. Maybe that’s the function of your blog, to be a forum for your whining and provocative comments, but it gives a rather one-dimensional picture of you as a person who really can’t stand living in Finland. I wouldn’t be surprised if people keep asking you why you’re still here.

“Love your country, fear your government.”

Why should I fear the government? There’s nothing to fear about the Finnish government, which is a bloody good thing, too. We’re not living under an oppressive and corrupt military regime or anything.

Oh, by the way, you should really make this comment box bigger. Writing an essay in five-row box is annoying.

“Re: drugs – how come you have nothing to say about my other point? I think it???s quite important too. Would you be interested in producing hard drugs as a living?”

Good point, sorry I forget to comment on it – Cigarettes & Alcohol both cause death due to overuse/misuse…and still it’s a huge business. Surely, companies would produce drugs like marijuana or whatever.

Another things thought – now that drugs are illegal, researchers often have a tough time getting permission to research existing drugs or developing new drugs. I’d suspect that newer & safer drugs would quickly be invented and heroin & cocaine would disappear. I know it’s SF but think “Soma” (Brave New World).

“But I???m not from Tampere, that???s a bad mistake. ”

D’oh! My mistake, I’ve heard that Tampere is quite the “red” city so I figured you were from there.

“Considering party she leads is in opposition, I???d say that???s her job”

Well I’m in the opposition too.

“It???s not just about criticizing the government, it???s that you never seem to bring up anything positive about Finland”

Trust me, for every bad thing I say about the government, I have another 10 wonderful things I say about Finland. It just doesn’t make for interesting news. Would you come read this blog if the headline was “Finland is so pretty in winter!!” or “Lapin Kulta tastes great in sauna!” – It’s just like all the major news sources, you usually only hear about the bad things. If people ask me why I live in Finland, they should ask Suvi-Anne Siimes the same question.

“Why should I fear the government? There???s nothing to fear about the Finnish government, which is a bloody good thing, too.”

My blog is full of reasons. When freedom, privacy, individual rights etc… are your most important political beliefs, then you’ll begin to fear the government…especially the U.S. government.

“We???re not living under an oppressive and corrupt military regime or anything.”

That’s true. I guess if you make Joseph Stalin your benchmark, then just about all governments look good.

“Writing an essay in five-row box is annoying.”

I was just thinking the same thing!!

“D???oh! My mistake, I???ve heard that Tampere is quite the ???red?? city so I figured you were from there.”

That’s like ancient history, civil war stuff from almost 100 years ago. Tampere is, like most cities in Finland, strictly Kokoomus territory. It was different in the seventies or so when the University for example was quite left-wing, but that’s long gone.

“When freedom, privacy, individual rights etc??¦ are your most important political beliefs, then you???ll begin to fear the government.”

I don’t fear the goverment, I fear the corporate world. Goverments are not the enemy, they’re just puppets operated by the evil corporate masterminds who run the show. Or at least that’s the worst-case scenario I’m afraid of. I wish governments stood up more against the corporate influence, but for example Nokia has lots of weight to throw around in Finland.

For example, it isn’t the governments who are trying to enforce software patents in EU. Governments don’t benefit – it’s the large software corporations who want those laws. Governments just fall on their knees. Fortunately the Polish government did the right thing there… Same thing with DRM in music and movies – that’s corporations trying to fuck wit the customer.

“I???d suspect that newer & safer drugs would quickly be invented and heroin & cocaine would disappear.”

But the current heroin and cocaine addicts would still need their fix and unless they come up with something that pushes the same buttons, they’ll still need heroin and cocaine.

But you’re right – I think the medical industry would love to create recreational drugs. Selling Prozac and Ritalin and new even better stuff without a prescription would make drug company execs and shareholders very happy.

But, as you say, cigarettes and alcohol cause already lots of deaths – wouldn’t those problems multiply if there were more options available? So, you don’t like alcohol, hey, mix up your head with these pills then! Drug use would increase and unless the new drugs were a lot tamer than the old ones, there would be lots of problems. And who wants tame drugs?

“D???oh! My mistake, I???ve heard that Tampere is quite the ???red?? city so I figured you were from there.”

That’s like ancient history, civil war time or so. Tampere University used to be red when the Soviet Union was in vogue back before I was born. Tampere is these days run by Kokoomus like most cities.

“When freedom, privacy, individual rights etc??¦ are your most important political beliefs, then you???ll begin to fear the government??¦especially the U.S. government.”

I don’t fear the government, I fear the corporate world. I don’t think it’s the governments who are the enemy, it’s the evil corporate masterminds who are pulling the strings behind them – or at least that’s the worst-case scenario I’m afraid of.

Take DRM systems in music and movies for example – that has little to do with governments, that’s the corporate world trying to fuck the customer, taking away any rights they might have. Or software patents, another weapon for big corporations – while governments create the laws, it’s the interests of big software money the software patents serve. Finland didn’t oppose the software patents in EU, because Nokia benefits from them. If Nokia says so, Finnish government goes on its knees, and that’s sad.

“I???d suspect that newer & safer drugs would quickly be invented and heroin & cocaine would disappear.”

If you’re addicted to heroin or cocaine, you still need to get your fix unless the new stuff pushes the same buttons.

But you’re right, medical companies would cherish the opportunity to sell more drugs to masses. There’s huge markets for stuff like Prozac, Ritalin or weight loss drugs – selling those without a prescription should make the company execs and shareholders happy. And that’s what’s important, these days.

As you say, cigarettes and alcohol cause lots of deaths already. Do we really need more stuff to mix our heads with? Certainly the problems would increase if there’d be more stuff available. Unless the new stuff is tamer, of course, but who wants drugs that are tamer than the old ones? And hey, how’s your precious citizen activity when even more people are drugged out of their minds? I don’t think the brave new world is a pleasant vision of future.

Lots of fire from little smoke. I think on a cursory glance this entry has gotten the most comments of any topic so far, 7-11 has been the median of “hot issues” so far, but 31?!.

Well, Finnish lefties aren’t the only ones who like to use the “love it or leave it” line. The difference between them and American flag-nuts is that the former would only like to get rid of over-critical foreigners, whereas the latter also want to say goodbye to their America-hating fellow citizens.

Hmmmm… I wonder if that makes Finnish lefties racist?:-)

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